Visage - Pros and Cons

[Jeff Caspari]

We have been reviewing the Visage product from Stamina software and have
been very impressed with its potential as a GUI / mv-aware applications
development platform.

Everything seems extremely professional - from the demo CD to the
Internet-based test drives.

Has anyone actually done development with this product and what do you think
are the pros and cons.

(Ross, we know what you think:)

Thanks,
Jeff

[Ross Ferris]

Jeff,

I'll get you some references directly to you if you like :-) .... you
may have more luck that way. Suffice to say at the upper end of the
development scale we have companies like Reynolds & Reynolds (who are
unlikely to comment on their ERA.net product in a public forum), down
to single developer organizations

Post by Jeff Caspari
We have been reviewing the Visage product from Stamina software and have
been very impressed with its potential as a GUI / mv-aware applications
development platform.
Everything seems extremely professional - from the demo CD to the
Internet-based test drives.
Has anyone actually done development with this product and what do you think
are the pros and cons.
(Ross, we know what you think:)
Thanks,
Jeff

[Steven S]

I could never got past the fact the it required IIS and therefore a server
version of Windows.

From a resale standpoint this becomes an issue on smaller sites.

Steve

Post by Jeff Caspari
We have been reviewing the Visage product from Stamina software and have
been very impressed with its potential as a GUI / mv-aware applications
development platform.
Everything seems extremely professional - from the demo CD to the
Internet-based test drives.
Has anyone actually done development with this product and what do you think
are the pros and cons.
(Ross, we know what you think:)
Thanks,
Jeff

[frosty]

I never loaded the evaluation CD, for this very reason.
Have a Winblows server, but use Apache, not IIS.

-- jet

Post by Steven S
I could never got past the fact the it required IIS and therefore a
server version of Windows.
From a resale standpoint this becomes an issue on smaller sites.
Steve

Post by Jeff Caspari
We have been reviewing the Visage product from Stamina software and
have been very impressed with its potential as a GUI / mv-aware
applications development platform.
Everything seems extremely professional - from the demo CD to the
Internet-based test drives.
Has anyone actually done development with this product and what do
you think are the pros and cons.
(Ross, we know what you think:)
Thanks,
Jeff

[Ross Ferris]

Steve (and FrostyJET)

Are you saying that you would adopt Visage if we had an Apache
(TomCat) version of the middleware? You see, unless people actually
give us this kind of feedback, we have nothing to go on in terms of
future R&D? From where I sit, there is no demand to take this project
beyond its current alpha status as a Java proof of concept "toy".

BTW Steve, for smaller sites there is nothing wrong with running IIS
out of Win2K/XP Pro - this is what we use for demonstration &
presentation purposes. Can be deployed as a "nice" POS solution in a
single user environment .... Add a touch screen & laser scanner and
you have a nice setup that can be deployed at multiple stores OR have
each "register" operate with its own local web server (after all, IIS
is FREE - all you need is the "business" version of windows, rather
than the home edition!)

As for not even looking at the CD, well, that is your choice (and,
IMHO, loss) – but I have "some" feedback from you now anyway, which I
appreciate.

Ross Ferris
Stamina Software
Viságe – It will change the way you look at Information

Post by frosty
I never loaded the evaluation CD, for this very reason.
Have a Winblows server, but use Apache, not IIS.
-- jet

Post by Steven S
I could never got past the fact the it required IIS and therefore a
server version of Windows.
From a resale standpoint this becomes an issue on smaller sites.
Steve

Post by Jeff Caspari
We have been reviewing the Visage product from Stamina software and
have been very impressed with its potential as a GUI / mv-aware
applications development platform.
Everything seems extremely professional - from the demo CD to the
Internet-based test drives.
Has anyone actually done development with this product and what do
you think are the pros and cons.
(Ross, we know what you think:)
Thanks,
Jeff

[BobJ]

For Ross mainly:
Tomcat may be a toy, but it is played with by a very large number of
programmers - and far beyond proof of concept. Will it ever be an important
part of your market segment? Probably not, but it might have more of a
marketing impact than you think. It is an unfortunate truism that many
small things can stop people from continuing an investigation. In the early
stages of evaluating a product like Visage, the prospect is like a
frightened rabbit - bolting at the first sign of danger. Tomcat was
developed for that very reason, and I'm sure that it was not a trivial
pursuit.
Another decision that you have made that may be costing you prospects in the
early stages of the analysis is the inability to resize the screen. You're
probably right about the screen size in a production environment, and your
product certainly will be used in a production environment. But the scared
rabbit syndrome works here, too. The prospect sees something that makes him
uncomfortable with the look and feel of the product. There is a very
significant danger of losing the prospect any time you let him explore
without someone by his side to answer every question as it arises. The
question becomes one of resources versus returns. How much hand holding can
you afford to do?

For the group as a whole:
I seem to see that the day of the 8 user system is dead. Things in
our industry have changed to the point that we can't make the sale and make
a profit on that size any more. There once were a substantial number of one
man Pick shops who got by on one new customer every 6 to 9 months but I
don't see those people posting any longer. And haven't seen them for some
time. Perhaps that's not a bad thing. We, as an industry, have matured
beyond the stage of cottage industry. Unfortunately, we can't seem to make
the leap to main stream - whatever that really means.
I suspect that there are still a lot of prospects out there for the
kinds of systems that the one man shop used to sell. But I think that they
are being sold a system based on MS Access because that's the software that
lets a pretty good one man shop produce a pretty good small business system
at a pretty reasonable cost. Java combined with Linux and one of the good
freebie (or nearly freebie) DBs like MySQL or BSD may be a platform that
could produce good income for the guy or gal who gets good at it.
What's my point? None, really. Just a big sigh for the old days when
we could beat the competition by a substantial margin, and do it easily.
BobJ

Post by Ross Ferris
Steve (and FrostyJET)
Are you saying that you would adopt Visage if we had an Apache
(TomCat) version of the middleware? You see, unless people actually
give us this kind of feedback, we have nothing to go on in terms of
future R&D? From where I sit, there is no demand to take this project
beyond its current alpha status as a Java proof of concept "toy".
BTW Steve, for smaller sites there is nothing wrong with running IIS
out of Win2K/XP Pro - this is what we use for demonstration &
presentation purposes. Can be deployed as a "nice" POS solution in a
single user environment .... Add a touch screen & laser scanner and
you have a nice setup that can be deployed at multiple stores OR have
each "register" operate with its own local web server (after all, IIS
is FREE - all you need is the "business" version of windows, rather
than the home edition!)
As for not even looking at the CD, well, that is your choice (and,
IMHO, loss) - but I have "some" feedback from you now anyway, which I
appreciate.
Ross Ferris
Stamina Software
Viságe - It will change the way you look at Information

Post by frosty
I never loaded the evaluation CD, for this very reason.
Have a Winblows server, but use Apache, not IIS.
-- jet

Post by Steven S
I could never got past the fact the it required IIS and therefore a
server version of Windows.
From a resale standpoint this becomes an issue on smaller sites.
Steve

Post by Jeff Caspari
We have been reviewing the Visage product from Stamina software and
have been very impressed with its potential as a GUI / mv-aware
applications development platform.
Everything seems extremely professional - from the demo CD to the
Internet-based test drives.
Has anyone actually done development with this product and what do
you think are the pros and cons.
(Ross, we know what you think:)
Thanks,
Jeff

[Ross Ferris]

Bob,

My comments about a "proof of concept toy" were directed towards a
Java/Tomcat middleware component of VISAGE, rather than Tomcat itself
!!!

In terms of screen sizing, we definitely "strongly suggest" that
people don't consider using anything less than 1024 x 768 resolution
(cause you get 60% more screen real estate than using a 800 x 600 -
and FORGET 640 x 480 PLEASE!) - but if people want to ignore our
advice, they are welcome to do so ?!?

In terms of "having someone by his side", this is precisely WHY we
offer our test drive facility in the manner we do - because we CAN be
looking over your shoulder & answering questions from 1/2 way round
the world, which the people that HAVE taken the test drive can attest
to :-)

This is supplemented by our training "videos" (multi-media
presentations), which you can play/rewind/replay as required & share
with much greater ease than a "real" training session (& you don't
have to take notes!!). The nice thing about this approach is that
every time we "hold a hand", and make a new video, it is available to
everyone !!!

BTW Bob, we/you can still beat Access, and products of that ilk, by a
substantial margin - with Visage. One of my favorite stories revolves
around the fact that systems developed with Access don't scale that
well over a WAN, and one of our users (NOT a "pick developer") is now
redeveloping and switching their in-house systems from Access to
Viságe.

When you combine the "traditional strengths" of the mv data model with
the drag & drop simplicity of a "modern" development platform, you end
up with a very potent weapon!!


Ross Ferris
Stamina Software
Visage – Changing the way you look at Information

Post by BobJ
Tomcat may be a toy, but it is played with by a very large number of
programmers - and far beyond proof of concept.

<snip>

Post by BobJ
Another decision that you have made that may be costing you prospects in the
early stages of the analysis is the inability to resize the screen. You're
probably right about the screen size in a production environment, and your
product certainly will be used in a production environment.

<snip>

Post by BobJ
There is a very
significant danger of losing the prospect any time you let him explore
without someone by his side to answer every question as it arises. The
question becomes one of resources versus returns. How much hand holding can
you afford to do?

<snip>

Post by BobJ

Post by BobJ
. But I think that they

are being sold a system based on MS Access

<snip>

Post by BobJ
Just a big sigh for the old days when
we could beat the competition by a substantial margin, and do it easily.
BobJ

[Tony Gravagno]

Bob, for exactly the reasons you've mentioned this market needs to
compel the DBMS vendors to modify their pricing models. I don't mean
give everything away for free, I mean change the licensing so that
it's compatible with (1) single user standalone systems and (2)
internet-based environment where there can be 1 user or 1000 at any
given moment. Our problem is not technical, the problem is that we're
stuck with a mindset that tells us what the target market should look
like. You're right, since the cost of PCs came down and everyone has
one (or several), there is no market in selling low-end solutions -
but the software that everyone has is very capable of supporting small
and large sites alike.

It's my firm belief that MV should be embedded in low-end applications
just like Access, MSDE, or MySQL, but the cost to the end user
prohibits that just with the DBMS license. If you guys can convince
the DBMS vendors that you can sell a large number of small sites to
equal the revenue of a small number of large sites, they 'might' go
for changes to the licensing. Honestly they might not too because,
while it hurts to say it, small sites can be a big resource drain on
everyone, and that means expenses are higher. But the consumer market
is huge - someone is selling out there.

Tony

Post by BobJ
I seem to see that the day of the 8 user system is dead. Things in
our industry have changed to the point that we can't make the sale and make
a profit on that size any more. There once were a substantial number of one
man Pick shops who got by on one new customer every 6 to 9 months but I
don't see those people posting any longer. And haven't seen them for some
time. Perhaps that's not a bad thing. We, as an industry, have matured
beyond the stage of cottage industry. Unfortunately, we can't seem to make
the leap to main stream - whatever that really means.
I suspect that there are still a lot of prospects out there for the
kinds of systems that the one man shop used to sell. But I think that they
are being sold a system based on MS Access because that's the software that
lets a pretty good one man shop produce a pretty good small business system
at a pretty reasonable cost. Java combined with Linux and one of the good
freebie (or nearly freebie) DBs like MySQL or BSD may be a platform that
could produce good income for the guy or gal who gets good at it.
What's my point? None, really. Just a big sigh for the old days when
we could beat the competition by a substantial margin, and do it easily.
BobJ

[Steven S]

Post by Ross Ferris
Steve (and FrostyJET)
Are you saying that you would adopt Visage if we had an Apache
(TomCat) version of the middleware? You see, unless people actually
give us this kind of feedback, we have nothing to go on in terms of
future R&D? From where I sit, there is no demand to take this project
beyond its current alpha status as a Java proof of concept "toy".

I would definitely look at it again if you had Apache? We (still) don't have
a GUI solution and I know of more people like myself...

Post by Ross Ferris
BTW Steve, for smaller sites there is nothing wrong with running IIS
out of Win2K/XP Pro - this is what we use for demonstration &
presentation purposes. Can be deployed as a "nice" POS solution in a
single user environment .... Add a touch screen & laser scanner and
you have a nice setup that can be deployed at multiple stores OR have
each "register" operate with its own local web server (after all, IIS
is FREE - all you need is the "business" version of windows, rather
than the home edition!)

Our typical setup is 5 to 8 users. We talked a few years back and the option
then was that IIS only allowed something like 5 connections at a time on a
Workstation product and that actually only served 1 or 2 users at a time. I
do not know if that has changed? Doesn't sound like it? And so having to
support each workstation as an IIS server is not very compelling.

Either way, Apache/Tomcat is used by millions of people worldwide and I
think you are missing the boat somewhat by ignoring that market segment.
Also, I wish there was an easy way to get rid of RD. If you also made MySQL
your backend and a way to convert my PickBasic application with some sort of
automation then you would really have something! :)

Steve

[kevin zollinger]

Post by Ross Ferris
Steve (and FrostyJET)
Are you saying that you would adopt Visage if we had an Apache
(TomCat) version of the middleware? You see, unless people actually
give us this kind of feedback, we have nothing to go on in terms of
future R&D? From where I sit, there is no demand to take this project
beyond its current alpha status as a Java proof of concept "toy".

That wasn't what I heard. What I heard was that they weren't willing to
consider using visage on IIS, not that they required a specific web server.

I don't have a list of clients that I would move to Visage, but if I did I
wouldn't want to use IIS for a couple of reasons. First, I would want to
connect my clients to the internet so that I could access their server
remotely. I am not comfortable putting IIS on the internet unless I have
someone watching the system to make sure that it has all of the latest
patches. There are at least three other server products that don't require
such constant hand holding to stay secure. Second, I find it about a
gazillion times easier to do remote administration on linux/unix than
windows. In both cases we are talking about small considerations, but small
considerations make the difference between a workable solution and one that
is not so workable.

[Jeffrey Kaufman]

We have decided to go with Visage, although I can't honestly say we have put
forth a huge effort yet. We've only done a hand full of screens so far.

The IIS issue is a concern for us only because it adds an additional level
of complexity. Our development system and most if our clients are on
D3/Linux. So, one of the workstations on the network must be running IIS and
it does not have the be the server running D3. Since many of those same
clients are running Active Fax, why not just put IIS and Active Fax on the
same box? In fact, that is what we did here in the office.

Having said that, I would also welcome an Apache version of Visage.
--
Jeffrey Kaufman
Key Data Systems Group
www.keydata.us
559-432-3832
559-432-4657 fax

Western Pacific Supply
www.westpacsupply.com
888-WestPac

Post by kevin zollinger

Post by Ross Ferris
Steve (and FrostyJET)
Are you saying that you would adopt Visage if we had an Apache
(TomCat) version of the middleware? You see, unless people actually
give us this kind of feedback, we have nothing to go on in terms of
future R&D? From where I sit, there is no demand to take this project
beyond its current alpha status as a Java proof of concept "toy".

That wasn't what I heard. What I heard was that they weren't willing to
consider using visage on IIS, not that they required a specific web server.
I don't have a list of clients that I would move to Visage, but if I did I
wouldn't want to use IIS for a couple of reasons. First, I would want to
connect my clients to the internet so that I could access their server
remotely. I am not comfortable putting IIS on the internet unless I have
someone watching the system to make sure that it has all of the latest
patches. There are at least three other server products that don't require
such constant hand holding to stay secure. Second, I find it about a
gazillion times easier to do remote administration on linux/unix than
windows. In both cases we are talking about small considerations, but small
considerations make the difference between a workable solution and one that
is not so workable.
--
~ kevin zollinger

[Jeff Caspari]

I would also add (not necessarily specific to Kevin's comments) that Visage
really does appear to rival Microsoft developer products (no Microsoft
bashing please). This is something the mv-market has never really
experienced before. Anyone that really tries Visage (with its couple of
caveats) seems to agree.

We have talked for many years how the Pick system is great but anyone in the
mainstream who gets the DBMS and winds up at the TCL prompt says: "now
what". Well, IMHO, Visage answers that question in mainstream style. In
other words, the mv-market now has a GUI development tool that rivals, if
not beats, other tools (all this with the DBMS you love).

If you haven't tried it then I highly recommend giving it the effort and
consideration.

Jeff

[Mark Wright]

I would at least look at the product if that were the case. We've
been looking for the "right" GUI tool for WAY too long now!!

MW

Post by Ross Ferris
Steve (and FrostyJET)
Are you saying that you would adopt Visage if we had an Apache
(TomCat) version of the middleware? You see, unless people actually
give us this kind of feedback, we have nothing to go on in terms of
future R&D? From where I sit, there is no demand to take this project
beyond its current alpha status as a Java proof of concept "toy".
BTW Steve, for smaller sites there is nothing wrong with running IIS
out of Win2K/XP Pro - this is what we use for demonstration &
presentation purposes. Can be deployed as a "nice" POS solution in a
single user environment .... Add a touch screen & laser scanner and
you have a nice setup that can be deployed at multiple stores OR have
each "register" operate with its own local web server (after all, IIS
is FREE - all you need is the "business" version of windows, rather
than the home edition!)
As for not even looking at the CD, well, that is your choice (and,
IMHO, loss) ? but I have "some" feedback from you now anyway, which I
appreciate.
Ross Ferris
Stamina Software
Viságe ? It will change the way you look at Information

Post by frosty
I never loaded the evaluation CD, for this very reason.
Have a Winblows server, but use Apache, not IIS.
-- jet

Post by Steven S
I could never got past the fact the it required IIS and therefore a
server version of Windows.
From a resale standpoint this becomes an issue on smaller sites.
Steve

Post by Jeff Caspari
We have been reviewing the Visage product from Stamina software and
have been very impressed with its potential as a GUI / mv-aware
applications development platform.
Everything seems extremely professional - from the demo CD to the
Internet-based test drives.
Has anyone actually done development with this product and what do
you think are the pros and cons.
(Ross, we know what you think:)
Thanks,
Jeff

[Ross Ferris]

Mark,

I'll get a current "test drive" CD sent out to you. I assume same
address as 12 months ago ? (Hope so, 'cause it's being sent now !) I'm
not sure if we had the test drive facility available then or not ? I'm
guessing not, otherwise you would be a user !!!

The test drive will let you do almost everything with Visage - EXCEPT
activate the security system. We USED to make this facility available,
but there was 1 (?) person that kept on turning security on, and would
keep everyone else out of the system, so we decided to not enable
application security on the test drive.

I KNOW some of the problems you have been having from posts in other
forums - you are going to be kicking yourself that you didn't complete
your evaluation back then.

You never know, even "Frosty" may be tempted, as it looks like our
TomCat project may be taken out of mothballs !


Ross Ferris
Stamina Software
Visage - It will change the way you look at Information

Post by Mark Wright
I would at least look at the product if that were the case. We've
been looking for the "right" GUI tool for WAY too long now!!
MW

Post by Ross Ferris
Steve (and FrostyJET)
Are you saying that you would adopt Visage if we had an Apache
(TomCat) version of the middleware? You see, unless people actually
give us this kind of feedback, we have nothing to go on in terms of
future R&D? From where I sit, there is no demand to take this project
beyond its current alpha status as a Java proof of concept "toy".
BTW Steve, for smaller sites there is nothing wrong with running IIS
out of Win2K/XP Pro - this is what we use for demonstration &
presentation purposes. Can be deployed as a "nice" POS solution in a
single user environment .... Add a touch screen & laser scanner and
you have a nice setup that can be deployed at multiple stores OR have
each "register" operate with its own local web server (after all, IIS
is FREE - all you need is the "business" version of windows, rather
than the home edition!)
As for not even looking at the CD, well, that is your choice (and,
IMHO, loss) ? but I have "some" feedback from you now anyway, which I
appreciate.
Ross Ferris
Stamina Software
Viságe ? It will change the way you look at Information

Post by frosty
I never loaded the evaluation CD, for this very reason.
Have a Winblows server, but use Apache, not IIS.
-- jet

Post by Steven S
I could never got past the fact the it required IIS and therefore a
server version of Windows.
From a resale standpoint this becomes an issue on smaller sites.
Steve

Post by Jeff Caspari
We have been reviewing the Visage product from Stamina software and
have been very impressed with its potential as a GUI / mv-aware
applications development platform.
Everything seems extremely professional - from the demo CD to the
Internet-based test drives.
Has anyone actually done development with this product and what do
you think are the pros and cons.
(Ross, we know what you think:)
Thanks,
Jeff

[Mike Preece]

I really do think you ought to take a look at the CD. Very impressive.
There is no doubt what-so-ever that Ross and his team have done a
tremendous job. The product and the presentation are first-class. On
the flip-side, my own feeling is that it does appear very M$ centric
and a little *too* rigid in some ways. Certainly, definitely,
absolutely worth at look though.

Cheers
Mike.

Post by frosty
I never loaded the evaluation CD, for this very reason.
Have a Winblows server, but use Apache, not IIS.
-- jet

Post by Steven S
I could never got past the fact the it required IIS and therefore a
server version of Windows.
From a resale standpoint this becomes an issue on smaller sites.
Steve

Post by Jeff Caspari
We have been reviewing the Visage product from Stamina software and
have been very impressed with its potential as a GUI / mv-aware
applications development platform.
Everything seems extremely professional - from the demo CD to the
Internet-based test drives.
Has anyone actually done development with this product and what do
you think are the pros and cons.
(Ross, we know what you think:)
Thanks,
Jeff

[Ross Ferris]

Mike,

If you don't mind "sharing" (and as I've already learnt so much from
this thread, like we need to seriously consider de-mothballing our
Apache/TomCat middleware component for Visage), I'd be interested in
your feedback on how we are "a little *too* rigid in some ways" ?

I'd like to think that we are always very responsive to constructive
criticism, and would welcome your input as to how we could improve
Visage!

(BTW, I don't mind if you think we appear to be Microsoft Centric - we
are ! and if we look like every other windows product at first glance,
then I actually think that is a plus, because if we had a dollar for
every dollar Bill made out of Windows .... :-)

Post by Mike Preece
I really do think you ought to take a look at the CD. Very impressive.
There is no doubt what-so-ever that Ross and his team have done a
tremendous job. The product and the presentation are first-class. On
the flip-side, my own feeling is that it does appear very M$ centric
and a little *too* rigid in some ways. Certainly, definitely,
absolutely worth at look though.
Cheers
Mike.

Post by frosty
I never loaded the evaluation CD, for this very reason.
Have a Winblows server, but use Apache, not IIS.
-- jet

Post by Steven S
I could never got past the fact the it required IIS and therefore a
server version of Windows.
From a resale standpoint this becomes an issue on smaller sites.
Steve

Post by Jeff Caspari
We have been reviewing the Visage product from Stamina software and
have been very impressed with its potential as a GUI / mv-aware
applications development platform.
Everything seems extremely professional - from the demo CD to the
Internet-based test drives.
Has anyone actually done development with this product and what do
you think are the pros and cons.
(Ross, we know what you think:)
Thanks,
Jeff

[Tony Gravagno]

Ross, a while back you and I had many off-line discussions about
Visage and I was impressed with your demos at Spectrum. I think the
reason my "active" interest waned was that the CD contained only an
audio/vidio demo of the software. Despite my eager interest I was
never able to get a hands-on "let me try it" version. I understand
that you want to control the user experience so you'd prefer to
hand-hold live demos. I'm just pointing this out as a possible
barrier to more widespread exposure to Visage. I quote "active"
interest compared to "passive" interest because the only reason I
don't hype Visage is that I've never actually used it, and that's
turned my active interest into passive - as I suspect is the case with
most people.

I understand the problem with providing software for demos, my own
NebulAnalysis software is not available for hands-on trial either
(like you I just have an A/V demo) and that leaves people wondering
why they should choose it over (IMO) simplistic AccuTerm interfaces.
It's a problem I guess a lot of us have.

I'm posting this publicly rather than via e-mail for a couple reasons.
First to let people know (FWIW) that I've always been impressed with
Visage and the dedication that Stamina and Ross have for their product
(albeit with a tad bit of overzealous marketing). Second I'm
wondering how many "me too"s we'll see here, which might help you to
decide that providing time-limited demoware might be a good way to get
more exposure for Visage.

Good luck bud.
Tony
-----------
See the latest News and updates to our site:
http://removeth1sNebula-RnD.com/news.htm

Post by Ross Ferris
Mike,
If you don't mind "sharing" (and as I've already learnt so much from
this thread, like we need to seriously consider de-mothballing our
Apache/TomCat middleware component for Visage), I'd be interested in
your feedback on how we are "a little *too* rigid in some ways" ?
I'd like to think that we are always very responsive to constructive
criticism, and would welcome your input as to how we could improve
Visage!
(BTW, I don't mind if you think we appear to be Microsoft Centric - we
are ! and if we look like every other windows product at first glance,
then I actually think that is a plus, because if we had a dollar for
every dollar Bill made out of Windows .... :-)

Post by Mike Preece
I really do think you ought to take a look at the CD. Very impressive.
There is no doubt what-so-ever that Ross and his team have done a
tremendous job. The product and the presentation are first-class. On
the flip-side, my own feeling is that it does appear very M$ centric
and a little *too* rigid in some ways. Certainly, definitely,
absolutely worth at look though.
Cheers
Mike.

Post by frosty
I never loaded the evaluation CD, for this very reason.
Have a Winblows server, but use Apache, not IIS.
-- jet

Post by Steven S
I could never got past the fact the it required IIS and therefore a
server version of Windows.
From a resale standpoint this becomes an issue on smaller sites.
Steve

Post by Jeff Caspari
We have been reviewing the Visage product from Stamina software and
have been very impressed with its potential as a GUI / mv-aware
applications development platform.
Everything seems extremely professional - from the demo CD to the
Internet-based test drives.
Has anyone actually done development with this product and what do
you think are the pros and cons.
(Ross, we know what you think:)
Thanks,
Jeff

[@(PatrickL)comcast.com]

Tony Gravagno wrote:
<snip>

Post by Tony Gravagno
I understand the problem with providing software for demos, my own
NebulAnalysis software is not available for hands-on trial either
(like you I just have an A/V demo) and that leaves people wondering
why they should choose it over (IMO) simplistic AccuTerm interfaces.
It's a problem I guess a lot of us have.

<snip>
I disagree Tony. The Accuterm interfaces may be simple in some areas,
but not simplistic.

The Green Screen has point amd click and can spawn graphical selection
boxes.

The native Accuterm Programming can transfer files back and forth from
the Workstation.

The mouse support can give you point and click from the Green Screen.

The object bridge is nice tool, only limited by the M$ workstaton.

The GUI components allow graphical from MV Basic code.

You can customize the workstation options with the menu editor.

It may be the Swiss Army Knife of the MV world.

I'm amazed at the job Pete has done with this product.


My 2, Patrick <;=)

[Tony Gravagno]

Please don't get me wrong - I'm the guy who just nominated AccuTerm as
the best horizontal app in our market - I love it and "code into it"
more than most.

I was talking about the way people do Excel using AccuTerm or
wIntegrate or ...(insert favorite emulator here). The standard way
people do Excel is writing a comma delimited file to disk then firing
up Excel and telling it to import the file. Full stop. Now a user
needs to decide what to do with the document.

NebulAnalysis can generate Excel documents on any PC in your shop from
a single green screen or even a phantom. You can generate a doc on
one system and file it to another, meaning you only really need one
copy of Excel for all of your users (most people who generate Excel
docs don't really "use" Excel.) It allows you to create, print, fax,
e-mail, and modify new or existing Excel documents. It will generate
charts, import remote data, populate templates, even bring back data
from sheets into the app for processing. It not only allows
manipulation of data, but formulas, formatting, and dynamic inserts of
columns, rows, and sheets within existing workbooks. All of this from
pure BASIC code. See it in action at:
http://removethisNebula-RnD.com/demos/nebulanalysis/
View the Readme's, download the Zip, execute the menu. Pretty simple.

Not only would doing this with AccuTerm be immensely difficult but the
problem I see is that every effort to generate Excel in our market is
unique - everyone does it their own way and when a developer gets into
a new shop he has to learn a new way. NebulAnalysis was intended to
fill a niche and provide a standardized way to do Excel, and do it
better than any commercial or adhoc code available.

The mistake I made with this and all of the other Office integration
products was that most Pick people don't really use MS Office beyond
the most basic functionality (import and print data), so while people
have been asking for Office integration for years and continue to do
so, very few people use the advanced functionality really available in
the software. For example, take a look at the features of
NebulaManager and how it "dominates" control of Outlook.
(http://removethisNebula-RnD.com/products/manager.htm) Most people
see Outlook purely as an e-mail tool, so for this market the software
is overkill in the extreme. For better or worse there are other
similar products in the mainstream market that are available and I've
been trying to retrofit my software to compete as a more mainstream
offering - but the time to do this is simply not available right now.

Since I'm going on about this, I'd like to thank Jeff Caspari who
donated the time of a couple of his people to work on NebulAnalysis.
Unfortunately I haven't been selling the software so I can't thank him
"properly" right now but I appreciate his interest in the software and
continued moral support.

Tony

Post by Ross Ferris
<snip>

Post by Tony Gravagno
I understand the problem with providing software for demos, my own
NebulAnalysis software is not available for hands-on trial either
(like you I just have an A/V demo) and that leaves people wondering
why they should choose it over (IMO) simplistic AccuTerm interfaces.
It's a problem I guess a lot of us have.

<snip>
I disagree Tony. The Accuterm interfaces may be simple in some areas,
but not simplistic.
The Green Screen has point amd click and can spawn graphical selection
boxes.
The native Accuterm Programming can transfer files back and forth from
the Workstation.
The mouse support can give you point and click from the Green Screen.
The object bridge is nice tool, only limited by the M$ workstaton.
The GUI components allow graphical from MV Basic code.
You can customize the workstation options with the menu editor.
It may be the Swiss Army Knife of the MV world.
I'm amazed at the job Pete has done with this product.
My 2, Patrick <;=)

[Ross Ferris]

Tony,

I'd suggest you have a closer look at your CD !!!
If you have the "Test Drive" CD, as well as a few hours of multi-media
training, there is also a movie that shows you how to access the test
drive facility !!?

Look for "How do I start the test drive" on the opening screen (we try
to be cryptic ;-) This movie takes you through, step by step,
everything you have to do to "play" with Visage.

Of course the CD is obviously "self qualifying" – only those people
who have actually watched ALL of the movies, and have therefore been
TRAINED in how to use Viságe, can actually see this link hiding as the
5th movie ;-)

We also provide "private sandpits" for people that want to start some
"real development" before they buy into the product, and don't want
their system to be available on the public test drive system. When
they buy a "real" Visage.Designer license, we can then also supply
them with a copy of the system they have developed on the test drive
(NOTE: Private "slots" and "time spans" are limited).

The test drive CD's ARE a bit dated now – anyone who has been on since
around May will have seen our new "XP" interface style icons – but the
basics are constant, and it is still easy to navigate through the
modified menu structure.

If you (or anyone) can't find a Viságe Test Drive CD, just send me an
email with a PHYSICAL address (the CD contains 600+Mb of "stuff" –
funny how a few hours of training & presentation videos can chew up
the space) and we will be happy to send one out – and if YOU don't
like it, DON'T turn it into a coaster …. PASS IT ON!!!


Ross Ferris
Stamina Software
Visage – It will change the way you look at Information

Post by Tony Gravagno
Ross, a while back you and I had many off-line discussions about
Visage and I was impressed with your demos at Spectrum. I think the
reason my "active" interest waned was that the CD contained only an
audio/vidio demo of the software. Despite my eager interest I was
never able to get a hands-on "let me try it" version.

[Fred Tuttle]

You can use "Professional" instead of "Home".

Post by Steven S
I could never got past the fact the it required IIS and therefore a server
version of Windows.
From a resale standpoint this becomes an issue on smaller sites.
Steve

Post by Jeff Caspari
We have been reviewing the Visage product from Stamina software and have
been very impressed with its potential as a GUI / mv-aware applications
development platform.
Everything seems extremely professional - from the demo CD to the
Internet-based test drives.
Has anyone actually done development with this product and what do you

think

Post by Jeff Caspari
are the pros and cons.
(Ross, we know what you think:)
Thanks,
Jeff

[d***@warren.k12.in.us]

Post by Jeff Caspari
We have been reviewing the Visage product from Stamina software and have
been very impressed with its potential as a GUI / mv-aware applications
development platform.
Everything seems extremely professional - from the demo CD to the
Internet-based test drives.
Has anyone actually done development with this product and what do you think
are the pros and cons.
(Ross, we know what you think:)
Thanks,
Jeff

this is not helpful

[Gene Buckle]

To: deberzoe000

From Newsgroup: comp.databases.pick

Post by Jeff Caspari
We have been reviewing the Visage product from Stamina software and have
been very impressed with its potential as a GUI / mv-aware applications
development platform.
Everything seems extremely professional - from the demo CD to the
Internet-based test drives.
Has anyone actually done development with this product and what do you think
are the pros and cons.
(Ross, we know what you think:)
Thanks,
Jeff

this is not helpful

Neither is replying to a 13 year old post, but if it works for you...

g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
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